Meet Brad Hickey
S1 Episode 05:
Brad Hickey is the Director of Gaming at Dordt University. He specializes in teaching about video games and a Reformed understanding of play theology.
Gaming Alone (The Gospel Coalition Podcast)
Gaming And Faith
Dordt Gaming Guild
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Brock Henderson: Welcome to the Faith Forms Podcast. Today I have a special guest, Dr. Brad Hickey is joining me. He is the gaming Director at Dort University here in Iowa. Brad, welcome.
Brad Hickey: Thanks, Brock. It's a pleasure to be here.
Brock Henderson: what's the director of gaming do at Dort University?
Brad Hickey: That's a great question. The Guild Director oversees the Gaming Guild, which is a large student club that has a large variety of activities as well as opportunities to take classes on gaming and faith and it's really.
What I do is to provide a community for gamers and people who just love play and games like Dungeon and Dragons to have a community and to be able to explore various ways that their faith connects with their games.
Brock Henderson: That sounds cool. How old is that program?
Brad Hickey: Yeah. So we are entering this coming fall. This will be the start of our third year.
Brock Henderson: And how did that come about? It [00:01:00] sounds kind of unique.
Brad Hickey: Yeah, that's a long story. But basically, the idea was I did my Ph.D. on just understanding how do we as Christians engage video games specifically, but also other types of games from a, what I come from the reform tradition, from reform tradition, but just basically from a Christian perspective in general.
And so as after I finished my PhD, I, I had friends who were at Dort University, and so over time I got to know them and they wanted me to come and try to develop some sort of club here on campus. We thought it was gonna be eSports. But it turned out that what students here were really interested was in community and being seen and validated and empowered.
So it was a long journey from kind of my dissertation up through, you know, these last few years of figuring it out with boots on the ground.
Brock Henderson: The students that are in the guild are they from all [00:02:00] different types of majors and focuses?
Brad Hickey: Yeah. Yeah, they are. Basically The Guild has students from freshmen all the way to seniors, and they're from a wide spectrum of disciplines. So it could be from agriculture. We have a lot of sports, you know, we have a, a national champion I think he's cross country you know, who is really into sports and he's a computer science all the way over to music and other things as well.
So we have a very diverse group.
Brock Henderson: And are these classes or a mixture of like extracurricular stuff?
Brad Hickey: The Gaming Guild?
Brock Henderson: Yeah. Is it all like are there like classes that are teaching, the intersection of games and theology
Brad Hickey: yeah. It's largely what we call co-curricular. And so a lot of it is basically like major What we call Friday casual events where we have our largest gatherings. It'll be upward of 80, is often around averaging 50 to 60, where students come on Friday night for pizza. And you can pretty much do anything you want here.
[00:03:00] Some like to gravitate towards our Dungeon And Dragons room and play the d and d all night with a one shot. We have a lot of PCs and you know, the traditional consoles like Nintendo. Lots of board games. And so that night it's all about just all of us, whatever you like, coming together. And so we have stuff like that.
We have what we call section directors who are over various high interest group areas in the guild like Minecraft or could be, you know, war gaming. We have a big war gaming group. And those people will have their kind of side or small groups you know, sometimes during the week to spend time together and do the things that they love.
But I also do teach a class that's called engaging the World of Gaming, and that is to explore what are video games and help students really understand, cause they're such a more complicated thing than most people understand a cultural thing. But then to, as we start to understand them, to start thinking about what, could be God's purposes for them.
How do we include them, he in a healthy way in our lives? And to see them as just [00:04:00] another thing. That God can use to make this world beautiful and to, you know, to affect his kingdom for his glory.
Brock Henderson: Cool. Where do you see opportunities for, ministry and, and gaming?
Brad Hickey: Well I think that just very naturally things that are playful, things that are. That are games, you know, they lend themselves when they're really done well, they're, they lend themselves the community first and foremost. So I think that just games can be a way to provide spaces for people in a large variety of ways, and for a large variety of purposes.
Like, so if it's just to say, To build depth and richness of relationship and in your neighborhood. You know, sitting down and having a game night with interested folk or, or using games to welcome, like, people who may be new to your town and, you know, don't really know a lot about it or whatever, to welcome them and make them feel loved.
But it can also be, I think, really good to help make spaces for people who often feel like they're not [00:05:00] seen and not cared for. And for people to be themselves. So I, you know, I know that there's several communities that I've seen in World Warcraft that they help people who. You know, like I don't know, like ethnic minorities or whatever else, you know, where they're saying you can come here and be yourself and we're just gonna focus on just loving you and, and caring for you.
It sounds like you had friends at the school campaigning for this and saw the importance of it. Has there been any like pushback? I know you and I kind of grew up in satanic panic and, a lot of fear in the church around Dungeons and Dragons and gaming and stuff. Has there been any of that?
Yeah, that's a good question. I think there was a little initial because the reason that they contacted me in the first place, because there are students that they lose themselves in video games and that can wreck their entire academic flight path. And so initially their contact with me was to say, you know, help us fix this, or is there a way to fix this?
What I [00:06:00] did was to help them think through like what does video games mean when you're from a Christian standpoint to say that like to help the institutions see that gaming is just the same as anything else in society.
That it can be used poorly in ways that hurt people and that demean ourselves and then rebel against God. But they can also be ways that glorify God and that do great things. So I think once I began to show them and help them just think through their own theology. And, you know, they were like, yeah, that's true.
That makes a lot of sense. And they were really open and gracious and thoughtful. And, and I think that, The first year was really a prove it year. Okay, you're saying these things can be good. You're saying that students can actually find good in this, that actually helps them. You need to kind of prove that, show us kind of how that looks.
And as we began to work through that and they saw the club build and seeing that people's GPAs stayed stable and that there was a lot of interesting papers coming through and work being done in like my class [00:07:00] where they students started with kind of like this. Almost embarrassment. Like this is silly. And then at the end, they're writing great papers that are really thoughtful and engaging, you know, gaming at a much higher level. Yeah, I think, and now they're just super enthusiastic and yeah, so, I really haven't, honestly, except for initially there's that little bit of fear, like, what are we getting ourselves into It?
It ha it just hasn't been there.
Brock Henderson: Now the Gospel Coalition podcast, where I first learned about you that was based around addiction or focused on ad kind of addiction and unhealthy relationship with games. And you were one of the big people featured in in that podcast. How did that come about?
Brad Hickey: Hmm. Yeah, That came about cuz the Guild had done so well over the first year and so the reporter is actually on Dordt's board
Brock Henderson: Oh, okay.
Brad Hickey: and so she heard about the guild and finally was. Said, you know, okay, I gotta hear more about [00:08:00] this. And she started, we started talking and just be what started as a half hour interview became eventually like a four hour discussion, you know?
As I began to share our heart and what we're trying to do, because Dordt's gaming Guild is a very unique program compared to say, you know, the average collegiate system, which there are many wonderful eSports programs out there. But oftentimes that's focused on the competitive eSports that sort of thing.
And what we're trying to do is focus on the education side and the leadership training side and the community side. And that really got. Sarah Zilstra, who was the reporter for that really got her attention. And I think that it really worked well with the type of things they were working on, talking about, you know, where are good spaces or where are good things happening that are actually helping.
I think they were focused more on, on males in that article, you know, how, where, where are colleges successful in helping them, engaging in their academics and while may, you know, [00:09:00] doing these things. And so that's why. I think we were included is because Dordt and the Gaming Guild was doing this well.
Brock Henderson: How did you get to this place where you so clearly see like what gaming can provide?
Brad Hickey: I think the big way to answer that is that, God can reach a lot of different people and God in a lot of different ways. Right? He spoke to Moses through the burning bush. He spoke to you know, one of the prophets through the, through a wind. And I think a lot of people don't understand this when I say this, but for me, my God reached me and saved my life through play and games and fantasy and video games.
My experiences with like World Warcraft and raiding with guilds and my earliest memories of playing with my grandparents on an old pc, you know, the Old Space Quest and King's Quest games. But you know, the characters so my past and the way God has reached me and then with, I came from a dysfunctional home.
I very dysfunctional and I didn't have heroes, I didn't have models to look [00:10:00] up to. And so it would be Gandolph and Aragorn. It would be the characters from Final Fantasy Seven. It would be, you know they would teach me like how to be good and moral and how to be you know, a good person. That sort of thing.
And as I began to develop and go to college and everything, I began to realize like, wow, this is, this is God, this is, this is who I've been seeing and all these other things. Like, this is the God that I, I worship and. So, yeah, for instance, I had a major stuttering issue and I had significant social confidence issues.
And so when I played World Warcraft and I found a guild, and I, and it is a long story, but I began to be their main healer for significant raids and like wrath of the Lich King. It gave me so much confidence in being with these people that were visiting each other's weddings and going to see people who were sick.
It wasn't just online behaviors, offline behavior, and how to be a great community to help solve me, solve my stuttering issues. And, and even in that time, I was speaking with wicken priests. I was speaking with Muslims. I was [00:11:00] speaking from with a large, diverse group of people and learning how to dialogue and learning other points of view, you know, and it just changed me.
So that once I got to my PhD program and I was trying to figure out a topic, you know, you, if you're gonna write a pH, a dissertation, you have to really love what you're doing. It's so hard. And, and, and so finally, they asked me what do you love? And I said, I love video games. I just, it's so infused into who I am.
You know, I have a mega man tattoo. It's the only one I have. Right. And so as I was working on my dissertation and studying this, it went from something that was a, just a personal interest to wow, you know, what is God doing in video games? Because the church is so often poo-pooed. And now when I look at it, I see the dark places, but I also see so much light.
I see people who have significant muscular dystrophy using it in ways that. They can fall in love and they can develop these deep, rich relationships and run and jump and do things they can't do, [00:12:00] some of them or to pull their families outta poverty cycles like eSports people often do. So for me, as I wrote and as I start, then I started to really delve into this from a theological perspective and to start studying the scriptures and studying theology and saying, wait, you know, God is always active in every space in the world.
And, and that includes gaming. And I feel like as we as a church. So that's kind of how I began to think about this, is that, and that's why I'm doing what I do, is to say that God's moving and gaming, it can be just like everything else, a powerful force for his good. And we just need to explore what that looks like and freedom and with responsibility, you know?
Brock Henderson: And just so everyone knows, Brad was kind enough to let me read his dissertation and it's going to be a book here pretty soon, right?
Brad Hickey: Yeah. Yes it is.
Brock Henderson: What's that called?
Brad Hickey: I am not sure yet where we're, so I'm getting my manuscript in, but basically it is [00:13:00] it should yeah, so I don't know the title. Hopefully it'll be out in the next year or so. Yeah.
Brock Henderson: Well, when it is, we will make sure to have a link for everybody.
Brad Hickey: Thank you.
Brock Henderson: Do you think the church has a adverse relationship with play?
Brad Hickey: I think so. I think that's changing, but I think that. When you think about the Puritan ethic, you know, where work is elevated over play I think that historically speaking, the church has always had a, had, has always struggled with knowing how to deal with play and games and other things like that.
If you look at, say church fathers and how they approached things like the Coliseum and, and the games. You know, it is like, some are like, stay away, don't do it. Others are like, just, it's just like what we do today. Be a light in those things, you know? Or, and, and, and I think that, on the negative, like the Satanic panics and that sort of a thing, we tend to react.
Before we think too [00:14:00] deeply about our own theology and then apply it like rightly. But I understand cuz it could be super overwhelming especially say in modern times where you have all these new forms of play and games and everything else and they're changing so quickly. I think it could be difficult.,
And I also think that the church forgets just how many beautiful treasures we have had and, and, and thought through in the history of play. I don't think many people realize that there's people, I can't remember what century he was in, but Maximus, the confessor and there's Aquinas and oh, I'm trying to think of the other ones.
But their ideas of play are so rich and meaningful for us today. If we would think about them you know, for instance for some of them they saw that in the very beginning when we think about play and how to be good players, whether it's video games or what else, of course they didn't know about that then, but is that God himself had already given an example in creation.
Brock Henderson: Yeah.
Brad Hickey: That the Trinity itself [00:15:00] was playful when they created the universe. Being spontaneous and, and creative and everything else, but that God's version of play is always responsible and always loving. And he was already thinking ahead millions of years or whatever you wanna say to when we would be here.
So in the midst of their spontaneity and everything else, they were still being responsible and thinking ahead and, and love for us who were to come. And I think that's just such a beautiful type of treasure that we, and when we say like, how do I be a Christian game designer? How do I play, you know, Minecraft or Call of Duty in a way that glorifies God.
Like that is a great, that's one of those treasures. That's a great way for us to say, well, I have, I can be free. Like, God was free. I can enjoy it, I can explore it. I can take tears of the kingdom to the nth degree, you know, but at the same time, that whole time, I have to be responsible to God. I'm still under his gaze.
I'm [00:16:00] still his child and his ambassador even in the digital spaces. And so, yeah, I think that the church misses that. But I do think it's changing as people who have loved video games and played video games are now coming into depositions of their own. Whether it's pastors or whatever. So I, I do think that you're gonna see changes in that, you know, in the next decade or so.
Brock Henderson: Yeah, it feels much slower than a lot of us would like, but over the years I've attended churches that are, are very intentionally reaching out to gamers and having like, board game nights and stuff. And it, it does feel like it's, it's changing. I've also, have been in contact with a few pastors that have been called kind of out of the traditional church and into like a more of a, I don't know, like streaming ministries and stuff.
So kind of a parachurch, or I don't know what you wanna call it, but it's I'm seeing more and more of that where people are leaving the [00:17:00] building and going out to just where people are.
Brad Hickey: Yeah, and I think that's right because, you know, I think there's what, 3 billion video game players in the world now. Somewhere around there. And I think about, you know, what is, when Jesus says go, you know, and we often just limit that geographically, you know?
But I think that God's domain extends everywhere and his love extends everywhere. And so I think that, you know, It makes sense that as people who have experienced these things and everything and we start thinking like, what, how do we minister effectively to gamers and these 3 billion people you know, who are wanting help to think about how, you know, either to explore better what faith and their, how faith is connected to their, their gaming, but also for people who are just lonely or you know, they are looking for something that we have and.
So I, I think that, yeah, absolutely. I think we're gonna, I hope [00:18:00] we can continue to see more and more creative efforts in that, cuz I think that the traditional models may not work as effectively as we hope.
Brock Henderson: Yeah. Hmm. when you think about the future and you dream, where do you see the program going?
Brad Hickey: Hmm. I, I think that first and foremost what I dream about is that, when we do our job so well that this program continues to grow and learn from its mistakes, but also continue to. Understand our students and, and provide for them experiences that they just know that they really matter to the kingdom that genuinely know,full stop when God sees your gaming.
Like where do you think that comes from? The passion for playing games, right? That's a gift from the spirit, you know? So that's my first real dream is that the students that walk through our doors, however long we're doing what we do that they leave knowing that they're loved and that their, their passions and things aren't just as important to God and the kingdom as anything [00:19:00] else.
And I think the second thing is that, that feeling of belonging and love and, and being cared for and being a genuine part of the kingdom, I hope that that spurs on new generations of leaders who are, love their games and love their, you know, developing games or playing board games or making them or whatever.
Are being pastors and like being equipped to actually begin to change the industry, begin to make spaces, new spaces and new inroads there. So that, you know, alar much more than are currently now are being ministered due and cared for in a lot of different variety of ways. And, and I don't know.
That's, yeah, so that's my dream, you know, is that we eventually have a full suite of classes here that are more focused on those type of things. How to minister effectively on missions online, how to do good game development. You know, that's like, how do you turn the Exodus into a good board game?
I don't know. So those are just some things that I dream about and I love, and my heart, you know, urines for.
Brock Henderson: Do you think your school [00:20:00] eventually have an eSports program, or is that still on the table?
Brad Hickey: Yeah, that's a good question. We might I, I don't know. That's not something on the table for me currently. I think that for, one of the things I try to tell people, you know, especially other colleges that are thinking about doing these type of things is that one of the mistakes that a lot of colleges make, I think, when I was interviewing for my dissertation is that, You have to know who you are as a school if you want to do a good program.
And so some schools like Boise State or Shenandoah, you know, these are schools that have incredible guild directors and eSports programs, and they really care about their students and it comes from their unique university kind of goals and aims and missions, and they know it and they know how to like organically grow out of that.
And I think that for us, you know, Dordt it's a what's called a neo calvinist or kiper, or a reformed school. And we really care about education. We really care about leadership training, and we really care about community and then [00:21:00] academic excellence. And so that's why I think currently right now, you know where the Gaming Guild is and where we're headed in terms of
Doubling down on this community and then just trying to see where organically goes with classes and everything else. I think this is our DNA. I think this is our path forward for a while, and then if that does happen to lead eSports, then you know it's gonna grow organically out of that. So we'll just have to see.
Brock Henderson: How big is Dordt?
Brad Hickey: I think it admissions will probably correct me, but I think we're around 4,000, I think. Mm-hmm.
Brock Henderson: So if there's a school that's looking into starting something like this, what advice do you have or what have you, what have you learned along the way so far?
Brad Hickey: Yeah. Again, I think, you know, know who, who you are what's your mission, what's your values? You know, because if you try to fake it and be something you're not, the students will know. I think that any good program these days. I think that what a lot of companies are looking for and their employees, a lot of churches are looking forward and their [00:22:00] leaders just in terms of having a healthy, balanced life after Covid, which has been traumatic for a lot of us and everything else, is that good programs include social and emotional kind of stuff.
Like how to develop teamwork, how to, you know, have these type of life skills, how to balance yourself and your play and everything else. There's. So I think that's really important that any program, whether, and I think like something like at Boise State has, you know, they're doing that where even as they're becoming eSports experts, they're also becoming life experts.
Right. And, and how to be a good person, like, and, and friend. I'm trying to think of other things other than that. And I, other than that, I think it's like to be plugged into the industry, you know, being siloed, like being part of coalitions, being part of lots of different. You know, industries and people who can have different perspectives and help you see what you might be missing.
Those are just some things I, that at least for us has been really important.
Brock Henderson: Brad, is there any place [00:23:00] people can go and learn more about the Gaming Guild or what you're doing?
Brad Hickey: Sure. I mean, the best way is to, as the, the article you mentioned, the Gospel Coalition that gives a really good overview. If I think we have. Some link on the Dort edu site. And yeah, those are the main ways. If you're interested, you know, and ever if anyone listening ever is interested in attending, you know, you can click on the recruitment and then, you know, follow that.
And there's stuff that talks about the Gaming Guild as well.
Cool. Well, we'll make sure to have those links down in the description. And um, yeah, I just wanna thank you so much, Brad, for joining me today Yeah. I appreciate it, Brock.
Brock Henderson:
